[FRA:] theology/critical theory
Philip Anthony O'Hanlon
pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk
Wed Aug 27 12:46:18 BST 2008
Ralph
thanks for your comments regarding the posting theology/critical theory. I'm not going to pretend to be able to answer you in respect of much of what you say as I am not as advanced as yourself regarding critical theory scholarship. I'm a student and here to learn a bit, and I do learn things from your posts.
Your comments on Jewishness and religion probe the meanings of the terms and question the link between them. Can one be a Jew and not religious? It seems so as "Jewish" incoporates an ethnicity as well as a cultural way of life. It seems that most of the Frankfurters were at least Jewish in this latter respect. I'm not sure of their attitude to religion or the extent to which eschatological concerns direct their thought, either explicit or suppressed. I myself am agnostic and so don't have an agenda in reading such concerns into their thought. But I suppose my questions would be, was religion/spirituality simply dismissed as ideology/myth? Wasn't reason itself also ironically treated as ideology/myth? Wasn't that treatment part of a dialectical critique which hoped to restore to reason a genuine utopian moment? If so, could religion be seen in a similar dialectical light? Finally, if the dismissal of religion was total, ought it to have been? I don't have an aswer to the last question as I am unsure of the truth content of religions but would not like to see theological concerns ruled out of court a priori. As said previously, I think the thought of Gillian Rose is at least interesting in this respect, on what she sees as the suppressed spiritual aspects of modernity. But again, I'm somewhat of a novice.
regards
Philip
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From: theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org [theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org] On Behalf Of theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org [theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org]
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND (Ralph Dumain)
2. Re: [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
(matthew piscioneri)
3. theology/critical theory (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
4. Re: theology/critical theory (Ralph Dumain)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:31:00 -0400
From: Ralph Dumain <rdumain at autodidactproject.org>
Subject: Re: [FRA:] [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
To: <theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <E1KXyeR-0003SE-RV at elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
As usual, you have nothing to say. Completely empty, contentless
drivel. Congratulations. You should be a headline speaker at the
Democratic National Convention.
At 04:21 AM 8/26/2008, matthew piscioneri wrote:
>I think Habermas's statements of this sort need to be understood
>with at least 1/2 an eye on his role as a "public" intellectual...a
>great deal of his work IMO should be understood as "situated" or
>"practical" discourse...in other words, its a form of discourse
>praxis. It's one of the great attractions of Habermas's work.
>Indeed, and without wanting to stretch things TOO far, I sometimes
>think Habermas (and safely from within the guise of the 'last great
>rationalist') utilizes a typical PoMO strategy of discursive
>flexibility to push specific practical objectives.
>
>Too often we pigeon hole thinkers into slots that refer more to the
>pop interests of the academic publishing industry...snappy dust
>cover tropes that seduce us into intellectual false consciousness.
>In the late 1960s, Habermas identified a niche in the then current
>discursive ecology and occupied it somewhat effortlessly. But, to
>overlook the almost playful manipulation of an extraordinarily wide
>range of theoretical positions (from Popper to Austin, for example)
>is to underestimate Habermas's fundamental commitment to pragmatism
>and the core/original CT intention of developing a critical theory
>of society, informed by science with practical intent.
>
>
>----------------------------------------
> > Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:37:46 -0400
> > From: jamesrovira at gmail.com
> > To: theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org
> > Subject: Re: [FRA:] [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
> >
> > I think Habermas credits postmodernism with too much originality.
> > There's significant overlap between postmodern hermeneutics and, say,
> > Medieval hermeneutics -- really, Catholic hermeneutics up to Luther,
> > in their assumptions about the text, its authority, etc.
> > "Christianity" is too big a word to be meaningfully used as Habermas
> > seems to be using it.
> >
> > But I'm not sure what Habermas means by "Christianity" in that
> > quotation. You might be able to argue that the ethical systems (and
> > to some extent, the metaphysics) of German Idealists were strongly
> > informed by -German Protestantism- (probably what Habermas means by
> > "Christianity"), but that's not saying much. Hegel knew that but
> > believed he was taking the next step -- so religion is picture
> > thinking and philosophy leads to the truth. Of course we'd expect a
> > similarity of patterns between the two, but there's no question what's
> > being privileged and what's being left behind, either. In this view
> > "Christianity" has a place in an evolutionary narrative, but like
> > everything in every evolutionary narrative it's to be left behind.
> > Does this make Hegel a Christian? Or Marx? Or Adorno? Hegel's
> > narrative seems to me to have much more in common with hermeticism or
> > panentheism than with Christianity in the end.
> >
> > The only persons to really reject Christianity -- to not give it any
> > place -- seems to me to be Nietzsche and Stirner.
> >
> > Adorno, if I recall, expressed a great deal of hostility toward
> > Kierkegaard's Christianity in his book Kierkegaard, but at the same
> > time seemed to prefer Benjamin's Jewish inflected writings more than
> > his communist writings -- he at least seemed to find them more
> > interesting. The Jargon of Authenticity seems to be harsher toward
> > Heideggerian existentialism than religion as well. These ambivalences
> > could be nothing more than differentiating the bad from the worse,
> > though, but I haven't quite worked it out yet.
> >
> > Jim R
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Lev Lafayette
> > <lev_lafayette at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure of that specific quote but there is the rather
> notorious remarks of 2004:
> > >
> > > "Christianity, and nothing else, is the ultimate foundation of
> liberty, conscience, human rights, and democracy, the benchmarks of
> Western civilization. To this day, we have no other options [than
> Christianity]. We continue to nourish ourselves from this source.
> Everything else is postmodern chatter."
> > >
> > > (cf., http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/?p=347)
> > >
> > > Personally, I think Habermas' uhhh, "epistemological turn"
> occurred with the publication of The Future of Human Nature in 2003.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lev
> >
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:43:58 +0000
From: matthew piscioneri <mpiscioneri at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FRA:] [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
To: Discussion of Frankfurt School Critical Theory
<theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <BAY129-W8D16473AA25F647CCBD91BD660 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
LOL. Thanks Ralph :-). You're a great man! Onwards.
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:45:49 +0100
From: Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk>
Subject: [FRA:] theology/critical theory
To: "theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org"
<theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID:
<B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B246C5ED1482 at EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
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I agree with last lister about the influence of Jewishness and don't see why thological concerns have to be excluded from a critical theory of society. Another often overlooked critical theory philosopher I think about in this regard is the late Gillian Rose - (Jewish then Anglican) a deeply spiritual thinker for whom theological concerns were quite central. She reminds us that the separation of state and religion is itself a spiritual act. That is what I read in "Mind the Gap", by Nigel Tubbs: http://the.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/60/1/42
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From: theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org [theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org] On Behalf Of theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org [theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org]
Sent: 24 August 2008 12:00
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
(matthew piscioneri)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:07:25 +0000
From: matthew piscioneri <mpiscioneri at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FRA:] [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
To: Discussion of Frankfurt School Critical Theory
<theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
Message-ID: <BAY129-W488C25D9695F9B76B9FCA5BD640 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
To say themes of redemption in later Adorno (and Horkheimer) are 'just a metaphor' is to be in some sort of intellectual denial. Certainly metaphor is there....but "just" a metaphor?
Not sure why? Recognizing the ironic "suffusion" of theology in a supposedly strictly post-metaphysical materialist critical philosophy only adds to the richness IMO. Your 'denial' also overlooks the exemplary Jewishness of so many extraordinary contributors to the critical-emancipatory project - Marx among others, of course. Let's face it, toward the end, Derrida went the same way ;-). Anyway, c'est la vie.
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:28:27 -0400
From: Ralph Dumain <rdumain at autodidactproject.org>
Subject: Re: [FRA:] theology/critical theory
To: <theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
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Are you kidding me? Jewishness has little to do with religion. This
reminds me of an experience attending a disappointing panel
discussion featuring an author who wrote a book about intermarriage
between Jews and non-Jews. I couldn't stand the author, who was more
preoccupied with the specifically religious dimension than probably
95% of American Jews. During the Q&A one senior citizen got up and
complained: "Sure, I'm Jewish, but do you people have to keep
talking about religion?"
Benjamin was in a class by himself, but the connection of the other
Frankfurters, to my knowledge, with Judaism, with the outstanding
exception of Fromm, was, to say the least, tenuous. I get the
impression Fromm was too Jewish for the others, and that's one reason
they disliked him.
But theological concerns have to be excluded in the sense of
validating them, because ideology critique is inherently antagonistic
to ideology, in this case, religion. For critical thought, myth has
to be converted into history.
But I'm getting the impression that critical theory now is just petty
bourgeois ideological masturbation. It's like the Democratic Party,
more and more reactionary, more conservative, reduced to hollow
rhetoric about what it allegedly stands for. Discussions like this
make me physically ill.
At 10:45 AM 8/26/2008, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon wrote:
>I agree with last lister about the influence of Jewishness and don't
>see why thological concerns have to be excluded from a critical
>theory of society. Another often overlooked critical theory
>philosopher I think about in this regard is the late Gillian Rose -
>(Jewish then Anglican) a deeply spiritual thinker for whom
>theological concerns were quite central. She reminds us that the
>separation of state and religion is itself a spiritual act. That is
>what I read in "Mind the Gap", by Nigel Tubbs:
>http://the.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/60/1/42
>
>________________________________________
>From: theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org
>[theory-frankfurt-school-bounces at srcf.ucam.org] On Behalf Of
>theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org
>[theory-frankfurt-school-request at srcf.ucam.org]
>Sent: 24 August 2008 12:00
>To: theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org
>Subject: theory-frankfurt-school Digest, Vol 38, Issue 7
>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
> (matthew piscioneri)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:07:25 +0000
>From: matthew piscioneri <mpiscioneri at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [FRA:] [Adorno-Hegel] Something about Kant from ND
>To: Discussion of Frankfurt School Critical Theory
> <theory-frankfurt-school at srcf.ucam.org>
>Message-ID: <BAY129-W488C25D9695F9B76B9FCA5BD640 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>To say themes of redemption in later Adorno (and Horkheimer) are
>'just a metaphor' is to be in some sort of intellectual denial.
>Certainly metaphor is there....but "just" a metaphor?
>
>Not sure why? Recognizing the ironic "suffusion" of theology in a
>supposedly strictly post-metaphysical materialist critical
>philosophy only adds to the richness IMO. Your 'denial' also
>overlooks the exemplary Jewishness of so many extraordinary
>contributors to the critical-emancipatory project - Marx among
>others, of course. Let's face it, toward the end, Derrida went the
>same way ;-). Anyway, c'est la vie.
------------------------------
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